- submitted by Colby Homer – HOMER HILL
- with Questions and Answers By Cristina Chambreau, DVM
- this article was written in 1993
I´ve been involved with this wonderful breed for 18 years. Early on I was taught “When you stop learning about Dobes, that´s when it’s time to get out!”, so I always strive to keep my eyes and ears open. Over the years I have observed many with the same wish to learn and improve the breed `and resultant educational programs, improvements in genetic testing and overall care and conditioning. I also began to hear the same theme over and over in different ways: “The breed is in trouble”, “We’ve created genetic time bombs”, “The dogs of the past were better, healthier, etc.” Well, no one can really answer for certain the past vs. the present controversy, but there is no doubt that dogs in the past had a healthier environment (air, water), less stress (how many shows a year?), a better quality of grains and meats available (less soil depletion, less drugs in meats, less preservatives) and less assault on the immune system (fewer vaccines, less often, again less stress of life, less medication, etc, etc.)! So how do we create a balance and do our part to help the Dobermans of today? By giving them a healthier, simpler life and making an effort to implement improvements in the maintenance of our dogs´ health. By the old saying, “all that´s old is new again”, more and more serious dog people are implementing holistic medicine into their routine care; as well as acupuncture and homeopathy. Homeopathy was a concept first published in 1810 by Samuel Hahnemann, its founder. This concept, which is an idea of analyzing and prescribing for the whole individual rather than just (fragmented) symptoms, has been extensively tested and researched, (tested only on people, then used successfully on people, then on animals) and despite the repression of drug companies and the contemporary medical community, it is gaining more and more attention probably just because it Works! You see, the major part of contemporary medicine is geared toward controlling and counteracting symptoms and disturbances. It almost completely ignores the body´s innate ability to heal itself, given the right supports. Contemporary medicine generally treats symptoms like an enemy which must be controlled and suppressed. Standard (contemporary) drugs are used to take the place of normal body processes: (hormonal drugs), inhibit body responses: (painkillers, anti-inflammatory drugs, antihistamines), or weaken or kill bacteria or cancer cells: (antibiotic chemotherapy and radiation therapy). Symptoms expressed represent the individual´s vitality defence mechanism (“vital force”) and its attempt to throw off a disturbance by diarrhea, vomiting, coughing, sneezing, pus formation, etc. Homeopathic medicine, in short, works with the actions of the symptoms, gently helping the body regain health. Samuel Hahnemann called this the “Law of Similars” (Simila Similibus Curentur – Like is cured by Like) and his basic theory is “A disease can be cured by whatever medicine produces similar symptoms when given to a healthy person.”
A competent homeopathic practitioner can read a set of signals from an illness. With multiple symptoms present he is able to choose a single remedy effective for them all. This is possible since there are 2,000 well documented, non-toxic remedies available to the practitioner. The specially prepared substances used as remedies may contain minute doses of herbs, minerals, animal products (examples: bee venom, poison ivy) and various other products. These substances are diluted to the point that only minuscule amounts actually enter the body. In some doses the dilution is so extreme it goes beyond the point where the substance could act through molecular strength. This phenomenon has created a debate of how these diluted substances actually work and have fuelled the cries of `Quackery´ expressed by contemporary medical practitioners in regards to homeopathic medicine in general. However, homeopathic medicine practitioners have proven its potencies are released by grinding and shaking of its tablets and liquids and have precise measurements and methods to assure its dosages.
There is no denying that there are virulent micro-organisms (viruses, etc.) and environmental assaults of all kinds, but individuals who are exposed equally to these factors vary tremendously in their resistance. So the most important factor in susceptibility to disease of any sort is the strength of the immune system.
How to strengthen the immune system and prevent disease is a cornerstone of holistic philosophy. In all probability, superior nutrition is the most important factor in preventing disease and maintaining a high quality of life. Conventional veterinary practitioners pay little attention to diet and education is usually up to the serious Dobe owner to discover on their own. But the vast majority of us in this fast moving world open a bag and a can for meal time. This method of feeding has only been available for the last few decades and these foods don’t contain things we wish they did, and do contain things we wish they didn’t. Vitamins present in original ingredients or added may be lost before they ever hit the bowl; destroyed by heat processing, presence of oxygen and by ingredient interaction. And of course, there is the bottom line; in a recent article I read on nutrition, a dry food manufacturer stated that if their food was produced with premium meats such as whole chicken, eggs and no preservatives, a forty pound bag would cost about $245.00! In most states laws allow pet food makers to use “4-D” sources of meat – dead, dying, disabled or diseased upon arrival at the slaughterhouse. These low quality meats have been linked to cancer, contain pesticide residue and possibly even heavy metals. If this much shortened list of horrors (without even touching on the preservative debate) has you ready for a dietary change for your Dobe, an excellent source for home cooked diets is “Dr. Pitcairn´s Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats”. (see “Sources” at the end of the article) or you can compromise as I have and feed a “natural” dry food with fresh cooked meats, raw vegetables and a little dairy product. It is not that labor intensive and I am able to continue this diet even while away at shows! The inclusion of supplements in the diet for today´s Dobe is recommended by most practitioners. Brewers yeast, vitamin C, Kelp and Vitamin E are basics, and, if you are really alert, you will be able to tailor supplements as needed. Some Dobes may need other vitamins as well as those mentioned above and an all natural diet may need bone meal.
Another concern of homeopathic and more recently, contemporary practitioners, is the effect of vaccines upon the immune system. Dr. Jean Dodds is an example. She has been a mainstay of the Doberman medical community and known to us all for her informative articles on our breeds´ genetic health concerns. Her article in the July 1990 “AKC Kennel Gazette”, “1990 Update on Autoimmune Diseases”, attributes the rapid rise in autoimmune (immune mediated; diseases in some breeds to “such factors as genetic and sex predisposition, nutritional influences, virus infections or frequent use of modified live virus vaccines and pituitary-thyroid axis imbalances.” In short, the medical community agrees that no vaccine is completely safe or completely effective. There is so much information on vaccines available that
the thinking Dobe owner has to now decide what route is best for their dogs and to intelligently balance the possible side effects with the benefits of disease prevention. Look at your new puppy; do want to proceed with 7 or 8 vaccines repeated many times in the first year of life: (example: Killed Parvo – 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 weeks of age or do you want to proceed with the more conservative route as some practitioners of holistic and contemporary medicine are now suggesting and use only the vaccines necessary for adequate protection in your region and to conform with the law. An example of this modified schedule would be: Rabies, Distemper/Hepatitis and Killed Parvo. There is even discussion on the number of “boosters” a puppy actually needs! While on the subject of puppies, the point has also been made that giving vaccinations in the same time period that anesthetics are administered or surgery performed (i.e.: ear cropping), can introduce the vaccine process when the immune system will be depressed for three weeks or more.
Almost everyone that has been involved with a Dobe for any length of time has either witnessed or experienced some type of coat problem, either minor or major. The drug of choice for hives, pustules, etc. is usually a corticosteroid such as “Prednisone” or “Medrol” and this family of drugs can also depress the immune system and ultimately disease resistance. Dr. Richard Pitcairn, one of the foremost homeopathic veterinary practitioners in our country, suspects that many skin problems at least partially reflect the body´s response to frequent vaccination. He also mentions that he sees problems most often after distemper and parvovirus vaccinations and other practitioners report rabies as the most troublesome. These problems can cause acute disease or a chronic health problem (skin problems in Dobes?) over a long period. This disorder is called “vaccinosis”. In most cases, homeopaths have found it necessary to antidote the effects of vaccinations (not the vaccine itself) before full health can be restored. Also, a homeopathic antidote regimen exists for those using conventional vaccines and hoping to avoid side effects but it is best to use treatment by a skilled practitioner.
There is a homeopathic alternative to contemporary vaccinations, however; widely used in Europe. This disease prevention method, called nosodes, is given by mouth, follows an easy initial regimen and then is given once every six months for life. One nosode is given at a time and is extremely safe and free from side effects with an established record of effectiveness. Nosodes exist for Parvovirus, Distemper, Leptospirosis/Hepatitis, Kennel Cough, and also for Staphloccal and Lyme Disease. Rabies injections are still necessary to comply with the law and disease prevention, of course, but the above mentioned antidote regimen could be utilized before administration. All readers should take note that the controversy regarding Corona vaccine is gaining momentum … problems have been reported in Dobes and at a recent veterinary symposium the effectiveness of the vaccine, due to the administration route (injection), has been placed in doubt. According to experts, corona vaccine is only effective when given oral-nasally, (like some Kennel Cough vaccines)!
So, in this rather lengthy discussion of vaccines I´ve attempted to show alternatives that are safe, stimulate thought and discuss yet another way to protect the immune system of Dobes. Nosodes are available from homeopathic practitioners, are low in cost, and can be started at any age. Further information is in the “Q and A” section.
One cannot end any discussion of the immune system in regards to Dobermans without a few words on thyroid problems. It is endemic in our breed and in all probability multi-factored in causation. Some Dobes thyroid falters from genetic causes but there is a real probability that some thyroid problems are triggered by external contributory causes; too many antibiotics, vaccinations, too much stress, improper diet for individual need or even environmental deprivation: a lack of fresh air, pure water and natural light. These all or in part, could be a factor in a thyroid imbalance. Keep in mind that in people, the daily thyroid output is about a millionth of a gram … a Dobe could be even less! Conventional thyroid medication replaces natural function and the thyroid atrophies. Homeopathic medicine has alternative treatment/medication that stimulates the thyroid and in some cases, returns it to normal function. Again, a comparison and alternative open to you and your Dobe.
These key points are vital in looking at the total picture of maintaining and supporting the immune system and ultimately the health of your Dobe. The choices are yours to make. Holistic medicine really should be spelled “wholelistic” because it encompasses all of life: environment, emotional well being, health maintenance, disease prevention, and of course supportive cure of disease through the use of homeopathic medicine.
We know that homeopathic medicine is derived from natural sources; (herbal, mineral, animal) and we have discussed ways to support the immune system to prevent health problems and promote longevity and soundness. But an introduction to holistic medicine would not be complete without mentioning the mental and emotional health of our Dobes and a holistic way to keep them functioning at their best. After all, we must always keep in mind the fact that the emotional state can affect the physical. That theory developed into the practice of psychoneuroimmunology: i.e. – the role of stress in precipitating disease. Dr. Edward Bach, a London physician, in the 1930’s discovered and developed extracts of flowers to relieve stress, anger, fear and obsessions. He produced a set of thirty eight remedies with no side effects and the innate ability to begin the desired improvements in a short time span. Chronic disorders requiring long term use have documented permanent improvement after discontinuing Bach Remedies and they are actively used in mental institutions today.
The Bach Remedies are used widely for house pets of all varieties, racehorses and, of course, show stock. It is important for the sceptic to remember that animals cannot exhibit a “placebo effect” …. they really do work! The Bach Remedies have tremendous uses for maximizing our Dobes quality of life and choosing a Remedy is simple. A few examples of Bach Remedies follow and ordering information is in the “sources” section at the end of this article.
Possible indications for use of a Bach Remedy:
WILLOW: for resentment … dogs that urinate on furniture or drapes, chew shoes, ignore owner when returned from their handler.
MIMULUS: the dog afraid of specific things … thunder, men, etc.
STAR OF BETHLEHEM: for any trauma, noted for use in rescued dogs.
AGRIMONY: for self chewers, destructive dogs, restless dogs.
GORSE: for dogs that show signs of hopelessness or refuse to eat after a severe illness or injury (cancer, accident, etc.)
IMPATIENS: any nervous condition or any form of pain or impatience.
HOLLY: for vicious, aggressive, suspicious o
r jealous animals.
SCLERANTHUS: for balance difficulties and strokes, recommended in combination with Rescue Remedy for motion sickness.
Dr. Bach’s best known remedy was his only combination remedy, aptly named the “Rescue Remedy”. A special combination of five remedies, this is an important addition to a Dobe owners tack box. Travel, pre-show, change of owner, injury, pre and post surgery, even emergency heart problems have documented successful uses of Rescue Remedy.
General directions for use of all Bach Remedies for Dogs:
Depending on the size of the dog – 1 to 3 drops by mouth – or 2-4 drops of Remedy into a one ounce dropper bottle-filled with spring water and shake 20 times (to release potency). Give four times daily, but in extreme need it can be given every thirty minutes. Rescue Remedy can be given as often as needed in times of crisis. A maximum of four different remedies can be used at one time on dogs … Rescue Remedy counts as one.
Homeopathic medicine and the Doberman Pinscher is such a logical combinations I am sure everyone can appreciate when living with Dobes and their health concerns that there are occasionally “grey areas” when treating a problem, ailment, or condition that the best conventional veterinarian or experienced breeder cannot resolve. The more in depth my studies and experiences in homeopathic medicine become, the more I realize its value in providing a more complete and effective care for our dogs; often giving the answers conventional medicine cannot. It is important to know that homeopathy is very specific and precise and follows very strict guidelines. Homeopathic practitioners are veterinarians with additional training to become homeopathic practitioners. There is most certainly more than one right way to provide the correct care in every aspect of your Dobes life! It is so reassuring to know there are alternatives and we are not bound to the singular viewpoint of cure.
I said at the beginning of this article that I was taught to never stop leaning about and for, Dobermans. Education is what keeps our breed moving forward and in that spirit I have offered you this introduction to homeopathy. But no introduction to homeopathic medicine written by a lay person would be complete without a question and answer section written by a homeopathic veterinarian. I have asked Christina Chambreau, DVM of Sparks, MD who has been of endless patience, good humour and accurate diagnosis to me and my Dobes, to provide us with a few answers and comments.
Dr. Chambreau no longer accepts new clients as she has expanded her well respected lecture schedule. She is available for seminars and lectures in 1994. Information on how to contact her is in the “source” section. However, Dr. Chambreau has provided me with a list of veterinary homeopaths to include in the “Source” section. Please keep in mind homeopaths are able to ,successfully treat over the phone! Rates by phone are usually by the minute and after the initial consultation, are not expensive.
Q AND A
Thank you for wanting to learn more about a way of treating that can make a huge difference with your dogs. Many of you have been doing this for years. Those of you who are having success with alternative therapies often stop going to your conventional veterinarians because your animals are so healthy that there seems to be no need. The need is in educating the veterinarians. Right now all they see are those cases where holistic medicine of any kind has NOT WORKED. No wonder they are sceptical. Many veterinarians I know got interested because of seeing and hearing about the successes their clients were having with their animals. This is a contribution you can make.
Also, write successes to your magazines, remembering that because a specific remedy or certain acupuncture points, or certain herbs cured one dog of a certain problem, a different dog may need very different treatment. Sharing what got cured shows others the possibility of health.
Thirdly, someone may want to start a holistic registry, for animals being treated with good diet, different disease protection and pertaining to alternative therapies. I frequently have clients who want their next pet to be from cured parents.
Q: I am sure that everyone is aware that the number of veterinary homeopaths number far less than conventional practitioners. Please explain how homeopaths are able to successfully diagnose and treat via phone conversations.
A: Most homeopathic practitioners prefer seeing their patients. Until recently, there were so few of us across the country that we had to treat by phone only. Because homeopathic medicines are prescribed more on the history, personality, preferences and individuality of the animal (or person) than on the current symptoms (except in acute situations). What you as the owner tell me is more important than what I can see in a brief visit. Sometimes when prescriptions are not curative the animal must be seen by the homeopath. Of course, any time there is a pathological problem, it must be diagnosed and the animal needs to be physically examined by a veterinarian, conventional or holistic.
Q: Why can’t you mix holistic and conventional medicines?
A: Why can´t you mix? Homeopathic medicines stimulate the body to heal itself, to actually produce the symptoms it needs to have for a short while that are necessary to restore the innate balance of the body. They work on such a deep level that apparently genetic problems can be removed from a line or a breed. (Note: call Jean Chase – 315-834-9217 who has used homeopathy on Dobes for years and see if she has a good example of this. Laura Kialaunas has great examples of clearing of bloat and wobblers after 3 generations of no vaccine and homeopathic treatment of parents, but she has Great Danes. Her number if you need it is 516-732-7251.)
Conventional medicines work to get rid of the symptoms the body has been making to try to rebalance itself. So they are usually diametrically opposed. If an animal is on continuing medication (for epilepsy, thyroid, diabetes, autoimmune disease, etc), they need to be slowly removed from the medication as they show positive reactions to the homeopathic medicine. One key to remember about homeopathy is that it is committed to a cure. A cure is when the animal needs NO MORE medication – ever – and the symptoms are gone – forever – and the animal is healthier in every way including getting fewer and much less severe acute ailments and reactions. Continuing to give conventional medicines cannot ever be a cure. Sometimes even using something as apparently innocuous as our common ear and wound salves containing antibiotics and steroids (read your labels) can stop true healing from happening.
Q: Would you list what you feel are basic necessities for a beginner wanting to do routine care homeopathically?
A: The basic necessity is education. Read all
the books Colby has listed and any others you can find. Talk to other people. Go to courses. Be aware that veterinarians can be listed as holistic with no certification and with no real experience or knowledge. Ask what training they have had and be thinking about what they prescribe and if the results are what you were looking for. Following is a list of some basic home care remedies for holistic care. The best quality food ingredients to prepare food. Calendula, hypericum, euphrasia, different Rescue Remedies for topical application: all in the different forms of creams, sprays, tinctures, and ointments. A homeopathic first aid kit with the basic remedies. (See sources list). Bach flower or other flower essences (these either help or do not work at all, they never hurt). A very healthy dose of patience, since we must give the body time to heal itself and be willing to tolerate symptoms for awhile.
Q: Can you suggest a dosage and potency for the beginner to use when using when using remedies on their own? When is it time to call your homeopath instead of beginning treatment yourself? When is it prudent to go to a conventional veterinary office when one has first tried homeopathic methods? When, how and how often to use homeopathic medicine on your own?
Anyone can learn how to use homeopathy very effectively on their own.
- Never give remedies longer than 1 month without working with a competent homeopath.
- Never give any potency higher than 12ccs daily. Even 12ccs and lower can be harmful if given too often. Remember that the very low potencies of 3x, 6x, 3c have Molecules of the original substance in them, so they can cause toxicity if given too long or too frequently.
- If something acute happens (injury, fright, diarrhea, vomiting, upper respiratory), improvement should be rapid (1-4 days at moat). If you do not get Improvement and have tried the remedies you know should work, or if you are worried about the seriousness of the condition, contact your homeopathic practitioner or go to your conventional veterinarian. Chronic conditions take a long time to clear up maybe years. If you are working with a homeopathic practitioner (or acupuncture or other holistic modality) and you are not satisfied with your results, talk with them about it. You should always be seeing some improvements. Even the most competent practitioners may not be able to get the right perspective on your animal and they should be willing to refer you.
In a crisis, give the remedies while you are on the way to your conventional veterinarian, and call your homeopath as soon as you can.
Q: I mentioned holistic thyroid medication in my article. Can you explain the differences and if it would be an effective medication for all hypothyroid (low) conditions?
A : Homeopathically, there is no one medicine for any one condition. The medicines are chosen for the individual animal. Glandular supplements to support the thyroid are fine to use in every animal suspected with this condition, but may not help all of them. Also, you should NEVER have to stay on a medication, not even herbal or glandular. (Sometimes incurable conditions do well staying on meds, but that is not the goal of holistic medicine, and is rarely needed.
Q: Since holistic medicine is non-toxic, what medications (generally speaking) are required to have a prescription from a licensed practitioner?
A: Often homeopathic remedies with potencies of 200c and above are prescription. Certain other remedies made from diseased tissue (nosodes) need a prescription. Just ask for what you want and you will be told if you need a prescription. Animal disease nosodes need to be purchased from a veterinarian since we share our experiences and make new recommendations.
Q: Panosteitis is sometimes a problem in our breed. Some feel it is genetic, some feel it is dietary and yet others view it as infection. What would be the holistic method for treatment in a typical case?
A: The holistic treatment would be good diets, not vaccinating and looking for the correct therapy. Homeopathically, each case of panosteitis would be treated individually with the remedy that matches not only the bone disease but everything else that is characteristic about the dog. When the parents are cured, they will stop passing on this problem, whether it is genetic or not.
Q: What is a nosode and as a vaccination medium, how does it differ from contemporary Vaccines?
A: Natural infection with a disease follows certain steps in the body. First the organism tries to penetrate the body and is fought off by the nasal hairs, the tracheal cillia, the stomach acids and cell linings, the mucus, etc. If the organism penetrates that level, an “intruder alert” call goes out to the rest of the body – “get ready, we have something trying to come in”. Next it is getting into the lymph system and being fought off there. Then finally it may get into the blood and become a systemic infection showing symptoms of the disease and maybe even killing the susceptible animal. Vaccines, however, sneak in the back door straight to the blood stream. There is no gearing up of the whole body defence mechanisms. Yes, antibodies are made to mostly protect against that specific virus, of that specific type, from harming the body, but overall the body is weakened because of the sneak attack. Nosodes, entering by absorption in the mouth, probably into an energy system of the body that we do not understand, stimulate the whole body to be less susceptible to any disease, especially that one. If the animal was susceptible to that disease (not just the specific virus, but any disease like it) it is now less susceptible.
To carry this a step further, if you have been treating your animals a way that has made them healthy (no need for any treatments, on-going supplements, or on-going avoidance of “allergenic substances”), they will usually be able to fight off ANY INFECTION, by ANY ORGANISM. They are just too healthy to get sick. It is beat to have this be your goal, rather than resorting even to nosodes.
Vaccine inserts say to administer to healthy animals only. Nosodes should also be used only in healthy animals. If your animal is healthy, she will not be susceptible to infections, so bottom line is to not need protection.
Remember, even when vaccinated, dogs die of Parvo. Using nosodes, some dogs also can die of Parvo. Using nothing, some dogs can die of Parvo. This applies to all diseases. The best is to be working with a homeopathic practitioner to treat any diseases that occur, to attain health.
Dr. Chambreau, thank you for taking the time to give us these explanations.
SOURCES and RECOMMENDED READING
|Dr. Pitcairn’s Complete Guide To Natural Health For Dogs And Cats||by Dr. Richard Pitcairn,
DVM & Susan Hubble Pitcairn
|Rodale Press, Emmaus, PA (1982)||Excellent – a primer for anyone interested in holistic medicine. Available from J & B Wholesale Pet Supplies (1-800-526-0388)|
|Dogs: Homeopathic Remedies||by George MacLeod, MR, CVS, DVSM||C. W. Daniel Co.Ltd (1983)||
|The Homeopathic Treatment of Small Animals-Principles & Practice||by Christopher Day, MA Vet MB, Vet FF, HOM, MRCUS||C. W. Daniel Co.Ltd (1992)||
|Homeopathic Medicine at Home||by Maesimund Panos, MD & Jane Heimlich||J. P. Tarcher, Inc.(1980)||
|The Patient, Not The Cure-The Challenge of Homeopathy||by Margery G. Blackie (Physician to her Majesty the Queen)||Woodbridge Press, Santa Barbara, CA (1978)|
|Homeopathic Medicine Today – A Modern Course of Study||by Trevor M. Cook, MS, PHD, C.Chem, FRSC, MHHA||Keats Publishing Co., New Canaan, CT (1989)||Keats carries many Homeopathic books|
|1990 Update on Autoimmune Diseases||by Jean Dodds, DVM||AKC Gazette||July, 1990|
|The Doctor Is In||by Robert Brown, DVM||Doberman Quarterly|
|Veterinary Topics – University of PA Symposium||by Connie Vanacore||Dog News|
|Animals and the Bach Remedies||by Barbara Myers – Elton Bach, USA|
|The Bach Flower Remedies – Alaskan Malamute column||by Vicky Jones||AKC Gazette||January, 1993|
|The Look Younger Diet||by William Hendrix||Readers Digest|
|Feed That Dog! Part IV||by John Cargill & Susan Thomas-Vargas||Dog World||October, 1993|
|Elton Bach, USA||644 Merrick Rd, Lynbrook, NY, 11563||To order of for more information: (1-800-433-7523)||Flower Essence Service: (1-800-548-0075)|
————HOLISTIC REMEDIES, OINTMENTS & SOAP————
|Washington Homeopathic Products, Inc.||4914 Del Ray Ave., Bethesda, MD 20814||For Information: (1-301-656-1695)||Ordering:(1-800-336-1695)|
|Barbara Meyers – certified counsellor for Bach use in animals||
The Holistic Animal Consulting Center
29 Lyman Ave, Staten Island, NY
|Available for phone consultations: (1-718-720-5548)|
————FLEA CONTROL, EAR WASH, SHAMPOO, ETC————
|Holistic Pet Center||15599 S.E. 82nd Dr, Clackamas, OR 97015||1-800-788-PETS|
————HOMEOPATHIC VETERINARY LECTURERS————
|Dr. Christina Chambreau, DVM||908 Cold Bottom Rd., Sparks, MD 21152||(1-410-771-4968)|
|Dr. Richard Pitcairn||California||Phone # for Lecture Schedule: (1-503-343-7665)|